Another Miscarriage of Justice?
Sep 13th, 2007 by Mark
A Washington couple who were visiting friends in San Diego, have been ordered to stand trial for murdering their child.
SAN DIEGO – A Washington couple accused of killing their infant son by giving him over-the-counter medication, was ordered Thursday to stand trial on charges of murder and child abuse.
Thomas Boettger Sr. 39, and Lorrie Boettger, 38, were visiting relatives in the San Diego neighborhood of Talmadge when their son, Thomas Boettger Jr., suddenly stopped breathing and died the morning of Oct. 25, according to courtroom testimony.
The prosecutors are alleging that the parents murdered their child by giving them too much medication. No one says it was done intentionally to kill the child. Yea, that’s murder here in SD.
Prosecutors argued that the Boettgers should have known it was dangerous to give an infant medications intended for adults, and disregarded warnings from friends and on the medications’ packaging.
Pathetic. What evidence do you have they wanted to murder their child?
Part of the prosecution’s case is that the Boettgers should have known better because Thomas Boettger is a volunteer firefighter and emergency medical technician and Lorrie Boettger was a midwife for many years.
Defense attorneys argued that it still isn’t clear whether the drugs caused the baby’s death and that there is no real evidence that the Boettgers committed a crime.
Based upon the way crimes are prosecuted here, no doubt there won’t be any since you don’t really need it. Disgusting. More Prosecutorial misconduct.
Tags: san diego, murder, child abuse, Thomas Boettger, Lorrie Boettger
My friend,
You ask what evidence is there they “wanted” to murder their son. It doesn’t matter to law enforcement or the judicial system what the Boettger’s “wanted” to do to their child. They killed him by being severely negligent. What idiot gives an INFANT benadryl and unisom to help him sleep? Nobody with half a brain. If you read ALL safety and warning labels of medication, it clearly states the ages the medication is intended for - there is usually a disclaimer stating to contact your physician for children. Geez, there are even warnings on INFANT/TODDLER medication to contact your doctor first.
This couple should be prosecuted for the death of their innocent, helpless child.
Lisa,
You are quite wrong. In order to murder someone you have to form intent to do same. In other words, they have to WANT their child to be dead before it is murder.
Negligence is NOT intent.
So not reading the safety warnings, makes someone an idiot? Then everyone who has taken those meds, is an idiot. Funny, aspirin has the same warning. Do you give your kids aspirin? Tylenol? Aleve? You must then also be a murder.
However it does not change the fact that this is nothing more than prosecutorial over-reach. They are whipping up unthinking people like yourself who they can outrage with inflammatory language such as “murder”, “child abuse”, “professional misconduct” etc…
Sad that some can not govern their passions, but let their passions govern them.
I personally knew both Lorrie and Thomas Boettger. Thomas had No patients what so ever. He refused to spend time with lorrie’s other young children and then would get mad at friends who the children liked, but those friends listened to kids and would occasionally watch cartoons. Thomas would not spend time with his family. He is a cocaine and heroine addict. I witnessed him come home after a 3 day binge and not care about anything or anyone he hurt. His son was collicy. He could not handle a well behaved 9 year old, I garentee he wnated that baby out of his life, he couldn’t deal with it!!! As for Lorrie, she is a very self centered individual. The reason she got pregnant was to try and get the attention of her drug addicted husband. The night she began to miscarry, for about the 14th time, Thomas left the house and went out using again knowing Lorriw was in severe pain. Turned out, Thomas watched her suffer for several hours on the family room couch and watched from outside through the window. Thomas butchered a live pig in the garage with the garage door wide open. This was in a culdasac with children living in all the houses. He is a sick man and Lorrie is no better. I truely hope they get life in prison!
So now Butchers are evil?
If they are truly that way, then I have to wonder where were the other adults they knew?
If you know that they did these things, then why did you not speak up? Seems a bit late now.
Lots of accusations, have you gone to the prosecutor?
If they did want them dead, then I hope they fry, however so far all I see is another case of the Government going nuts.
Yes, I have gone to the prosecutor. I have spoken with him on several occasions!!! And yes, I notified the police department of the abuse I witnessed with Thomas and Lorries youngest daughter.
I also knew Lorrie for many years, but our friendship ended not long after she got together with Mr. Boettger. I can attest to many of the things Christina stated above, but I don’t have first hand knowledge of any of the specifics of the case so I haven’t contacted the prosecutor. All I can say is that our hearts were broken first when we learned of the baby’s death, and again when we learned of the investigation and charges. And we were not surprised.
I also wanted to clarify that the daughter Christina mentioned was from a previous marriage that had only recently ended. No offense, C- I just wanted to make sure no one was confused.
(Christina- I would like to contact you, but addy’s are disabled. I don’t want my addy publicized, but I do want you to contact me. Any ideas?)
Dont know if you know this but the parents ran from the police and did so with the 10 yr old daughter. The family had no clue where they were. They didnt care about anyone else but themselves. The deserve what they have coming to them.
They not only ran, but took the 10 year old with them and then didn’t feed her but one ‘big’ meal a day in a public restaurant so they would reduce the chance of being seen. They lied and said they were with friends, but instead were in hotels. They were caught with a loaded 9mm gun, zip tie handcuffs and the real kind of handcuffs when they were going to see her 10 year old. Just what does all that infer? I’m trying not to judge but um….
I actually meet Lorrie and Thomas the day after they came back from San Diego. In the short amount of time that I did know the two of them, I was able to observe a few unsettling things. I will not discuss them here because they prosecution is already aware of what I saw. I don’t know where everyone is getting their information but it all sounds worse than I initially thought.
I was devastated when Lorrie called me from San Diego and told me that little Thomas had died. I was stunned when I found out that they were being charged for murder, although it wasn’t unbelievable. It was obvious from the beginning that Lorrie was DEVASTATED and I would have said without a doubt in my mind that she wouldn’t, couldn’t, have anything to do with this.
I think perhaps, considering Thomas’ background, and all of the things that have been brought up here, as well as the things that I have witnessed myself, perhaps something happened to the child and Lorrie was unaware. Given the information that I have read, I get the feeling it may not have been beyond him. Unfortunately that sort of thing happens all of the time. Terrible, thats all I can say. They seem to have a lot of friends standing by them. How sad is that. They claim to have known Thomas for so long, but have they witnessed the same things some of us have??? If so, what in the world are they thinking? Seriously, it makes me angry. This guy did somethings that are really really questionable at best, but they stand by him. Really weird what people will do.
All I know is if they did give the child everything the prosecution says they did. If they are found guilty, they need to stay right where they are. We will let the Judge do the Judging I suppose.
Right after they came back from San Diego after Little Thomas’ funeral Lorrie got pregnant again, and miscarried.
Thank goodness the judge didn’t lower their bail today. These people deserve to be in jail.
I’ve been reading what I can about this story because a friend of mine recently started a Facebook page in support of this couple and since I had not heard of them, I wanted to see what this was about. After reading several stories about what had happened and then finally finding this page with comments from people who knew the couple, I’m saddened by what I have read. Every second of every day parents make decisions for their children that could be potentially fatal such as: “do I let my child go play at their friend’s house even though no parents are home?”, “do I let my child ride the public transit bus to school even though it goes through city center and ‘who knows’ could get on”?. With school age children, we don’t know if when we say goodbye to them in the morning; if that’s going to be the last time we see them because someone could come into their school and start shooting….the fears are endless. HOWEVER, as a mother of three, where one of the three had colic and one had Respitory Syncytial Virus, I have spent MANY nights sitting up with my children while they couldn’t sleep and while they cried. I drove my daughter around in the middle of the night listening to country music and prayed I wouldn’t hit a red light for fear she would wake up and start crying again…sigh. I sat sitting straight up in a chair all night so my son’s lungs wouldn’t get congested and so that HE could sleep through the night…again..sigh. THIS IS WHAT WE DO AS LOVING PARENTS!!!!!! We DO NOT give our children adult sleep medication! We DO NOT self-diagnose a child who can not speak with Acid Reflux!!! We can play semantics all we want with the wording of what these two people did…”murder” “negligence” “manslaughter”….but a helpless baby died due to an overdose of several medications and I HOPE that they don’t get any mercy shown to them by the justice system.
Mark, thank you for pointing out the injustice of this case. The majority of the comments here seem to be completely missing the point and could be a case study in the susceptibility of the American people to believe anything that is published in a newspaper or blog.
I just spoke to Lorrie this morning, and she is very interested in posting her statement here. Mark, please contact me by email if you are interested in talking to her directly or receiving an email copy of her own words about the case. Yes, she has seen a printout of this blog. Although she doesn’t know anyone named “Christina” she has a very good idea who HE is – a drug addict she kicked out of her house. Gee, I don’t suppose he would have any vengeful motivations to tell the public or authorities lies about them. Of course, I have no firsthand knowledge of the supposed situation he describes and cannot pass judgment on it except to note, as did “aka Jane” that he seems to be confusing Thomas for Lorrie’s ex-husband. Thomas has no other children; baby Thomas was his first child.
On the run? The family didn’t know where they were? Right…do you realize that they were arrested as they waited for hours for the ex-husband to return Lorrie’s ten-year-old daughter following a weekend visit? Does that sound like someone on the run? Actively communicating with an ex-husband, arranging visits so her daughter could see her father?
To “AM” I have to say that I admire your strength in dealing with the pain and frustration of some very challenging situations. It is sad to note, however, that you are probably in the minority in your approach. There are many fine, respectable parents would not be nearly as committed as you, and many, many others who simply turn up the music and let their children suffer. Please know that Lorrie did in fact do most of what you have done, including putting little Thomas in a stroller and walking him around their small town in the middle of the night, because that would calm him down and help him get to sleep.
But I have to point out to “AM” and anyone else who believes that “…a helpless baby died due to an overdose of several medications…” - this simply did not happen. According to accounts of supporters who attended the pretrial hearing, the toxicology report attached to the autopsy report shows that the medication levels were NOT an overdose, but were in fact trace amounts consistent with an APPROPRIATE dosage for his weight. How then could the medical examiner blame the medication for his death? Because it was his OPINION that it caused his death because there was nothing else found that could explain it, a fact he apparently admitted under oath. So far no one anywhere has found any literature that supports the assertion that it COULD have even killed him.
Mark, you used the phrase “prosecutorial misconduct.” You have no idea how right-on you are. I don’t want to start slinging accusations here, but I’m sure Lorrie would be happy to fill you in on some details that the citizens of San Diego need to know about how their tax dollars are being spent. They should be outraged!
Thank you,
Louanne
I don’t think you are right Louanne about the family knowing where the 10 year old and the gang were. I know the family and they were panicked and upset. I think you are getting your information from someone who wants you to believe certain things. Its horrible to believe the truth, but you may have to face it.
Louanne - I don’t know where you’re getting your information about Lorrie’s ex-husband, but you’re WAY off base. He was not a drug user, he DID spend quality time with his family, and he loved BOTH of his kids. He & Lorrie tried for years to have more kids after their first daughter was born. Speaking of whom, I find it very sad that the oldest daughter is never mentioned in any messages that I’ve read…anywhere. Maybe it’s because she’s no longer speaking to her mother. She’s a wonderful, levelheaded, beautiful young lady and I trust her judgement on this whole issue and the whole relationship between her mom and Thomas. And trust me, that judgement is very negative. But do not try to cast darkness over Lorrie’s ex-husband because of what the second husband is involved in. That would be a huge error!! Both daughters love and respect their dad, and the youngest (”the 10 year old) is living with him.
Louanne- I have no easy way to say this, but you are being lied to. Renata is right. L&T were not arrested while waiting for the 10yo to be returned to them, but instead it was just the opposite. Her older sister called about a week before the arrest, hoping I had heared from them since they had run- with the 10yo. No one knew where they were, including the girls’ father.
Does this prove that they are guilty of murder? No. But it is one example of how easily and skillfully the lies come. Please, for your own sake, do the research.
Carol- I agree 100% with your take on the adult daughter. I’ve known her since she was tiny and she is a bright, level-headed, honest girl who has moved on with her life and deserves to be left as far out of this mess as possible. My heart breaks for her.
I just found this website today, and though I have kept quiet about this issue I have to make a statement here. We, the family, did NOT know where they were while they were “hiding”. We were very worried about the ten year old as one just doesn’t know what weird things could happen if they were found by the police or by Thomas’s drug buddies. We were all very surprised and grateful when the daughter was dropped off to spend the weekend with her dad - Lorrie’s first husband. Who by the way, has been an excellent father. We all agreed that the child would not go back to running and hiding, and I think that only a really bad father would have let her go back to that.
Lorrie’s older daughter is an exceptional young woman who split with her mother because of Thomas. She has been there for her sister any way she can while she is working full time and going to school. She deserves some peace which she hopefully will get when the trial is over. I don’t think many people realize just how difficult this has all been for her. And she has been the sounding board for her sister so she knows better than anyone how this has affected her sister.
I cannot speculate on what happened to the baby. That is for a court of law to decide, and both Lorrie and Thomas have to meet their maker some day. I do know that Lorrie’s actions over the past several years have caused a great deal of hurt and pain for her family.
Louanne, I know that you delivered Christmas gifts to her daughters the day before Christmas. I commend you on your loyalty and caring. But I am sorry to tell you that down the road you will feel the same way we do - betrayed and hurt. Thomas is a user, and Lorrie seems to be following right along, although she has always been a pretty good con on her own.
Mark, I agree that the people in Southern Ca seem to get carried away with going to trial without evidence. However, there were a lot of drugs in that baby. I would be really happy if that was a huge mistake. We will have to learn to live with whatever answers we get.
Well said, Relative. Our prayers are with you.
i knew the couple very well, i hung around the house and even babysat with my close friend. They seemed like a very over happy family, they had a great dane and feed him raw meat once a day. They both seemd that they were stressed but loved the baby very much. when we got a call from them in cali, about baby thomas we were very upset, it was shocking that they left with a baby and now would be coming home with out the baby. when they got home they sold all off the babys things asap. My close friend and I attended the funeral were it seemd that thomas was not upset. While Lorrie sat by the baby thomas’s crib in the viewing room hysterically crying. Just a question how well did we really know them”? i mean how did he have a house and multiple cars with his wife not working and his business not taking off. while supporting two childern and two great danes. come on now where were they getting there money??? After the funeral they had a little lunch area, where it didnt even feel like we were at a funeral anymore. thomas was having a great old time, where lorrie was still very upset. They had sent me a text saying that they were pregnant, what kind of people would be having sex after there baby son past away. Lorrie did have a miscarriage with that pregnanacey. I never once saw thomas beat or hurt the youngest daugther at all. She seemed to love him. And i knew about thomas having a past with drugs, but it didnt seem like it was current. They told us at the funeral that thomas was the last one with the baby. I do believe that there is something seriously wrong with this picture.are they An over happy, joyful, full of energy family gone wrong. Or maybe they had a secret life alot of us didnt know about. ???
I was just directed to this site today and I must say I am absolutely DISGUSTED by the lies being told here. You people are saying some of the biggest lies I have ever heard in this case. Maybe you didn’t know where they were But I knew where they were every minute of every day up until their arrest! Saying that they were only feeding Nattie once a day so not to be seen?
WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP! You bunch all sound like a bunch of old ladies telling rumors down at the corner store.
I am absolutely flabergasted by some of the things being said here.
Nothing but lies. You people should be ASHAMED of yourselves.
You NEED to read the autopsey reports and the preliminary hearing statements of both medical examiners. There were not “allot of drugs in that baby”. Good Lord people! How can you say such things? You all have been judge and jury already, even though what you are saying has already been proven to NOT be true!
Thomas & Lorrie NEVER “RAN” anywhere! They were with ME most of the time. They were not “hiding” from anyone. And they WERE waiting to pick up Nattie when they were arrested.
This I know for SURE.
Keep hiding behind your screen names. You are all pathetic!
Except Louanne. At least you TRIED to tell them the truth!
Lots of misinformation here. And some outright lies.
For one, I was at the funeral, talked with Thomas several times, and every time I saw him he was crying his head off. Well a few times he tried to put on a good face for folk for about 30 seconds.
I don’t understand the desire to cast others as either wonderful or terrible — that is not real. These are people, not cartoon characters. I have known Thomas for many many years and I would say that he, like most people, is a complicated mix. He may in fact be guilty of many things, though much of the info from folks who claim to know him above is kind of mixed together with some lies that have been circulating around about him. Some of the bad stuff has an element of truth to it but it is not the sum total truth as it is being presented. And being a knuckle head or a jerk or even an addict does not make you a murderer, last time I checked.
aka Jane you don’t know what you are talking about - they were going to pick up the younger daughter when they arrested them - this is a matter of public record and I heard the detective describe the arrest in court.
Christina, I know who you are and you know that nothing that you said will be used in court because you are both worse than you accuse Thomas of being and are also lying to stay out of jail yourself!
No one is saying thomas and lorrie are perfect or saints. But look at the evidence and the facts and realize that the baby died, there were trace (read the reports - this is a FACT) amounts of drugs in it, and the DA did rush to add it all up to murder. T&L have bad relational skills, checkered pasts, and some dicey friends and not many resources to fight and the DA adds this up to a case he thinks he can win. It has nothing to do with fact or justice. Decent lawyers, and they have them, will have a field day in court on this. The case barely made it over the hump to determine whether or not it was possible that a crime (any crime, not the crime charged) was committed. The case is completely mis-charged, the cops have gone out of bounds to try and get a conviction, and people have believed things spread (some of them by the police…) by folks with an agenda. You all will have painted them as totally this or totally that and you will have missed that they are just people — not monsters and not saints. People’s reactions to them have been so sadly like a tv movie. You have had a part in a tragedy, and like Thomas and Lorrie, you will have to answer to your maker for that as well. For words kill as surely as bullets. Funny thing is that all of this has had some very positive effect on them, but what about you?
GREAT JOB GABBY!
OH AND “CHRISTINA”…….
DID YOU REALLY TRADE AWAY THE BOETTGERS FREEDOM FOR A DEAL WITH THE DA DEVIL? SO ARE THEY GOING TO TOSS OUT YOUR WARRANTS FOR THE LIES YOU HAVE TO TELL?
SO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN T&L GET OFF? I’M GUESSING THEY WILL WANT SOME ANSWERS (AND CASH) FROM YOU.
I was at the funeral, and in the viewing room before the funeral, which funeral was Star at? Maybe Thomas “pulled it together” for short stretches of time, and I know he felt he had to be the strong one for Lorrie, but in private, that man was devastated. And since when does it make someone suspect to be happy and high energy, or worse yet, to have sex within weeks of your child dying!???? Maybe they found it comforting. There is no logic here. I know T and L are not perfect people. But anyone who spent time with them knows they loved each other, loved their baby, and loved Lorrie’s daughter who was a happy, healthy child (who loved being with them), she was not “abused” by any stretch of the imagination. And maybe the ex is an ok dad, I hope so, but he was a physically abusive husband. T has his faults, but he would never harm her, and would go (and is going) out of his way to stand by her and protect her in any way he can. Lucky for her, Thomas will never “throw her under the bus” the way some of her alleged “friends” have.
Oh, and I almost forgot… now they are criminals for having two trucks and two dogs? If you MUST know, in addition to their construction business, they sold a house up north and had some proceeds from that. Have you ever heard of “property appreciation”? Plus T had done all kinds of work on the house, which helped them get a good price. Can you say “sweat equity?” And I think a tiny inheritance when T’s mom died. Does appreciation, sweat equity and a few bonds make them unethical, or just murderers? You know not what you say.
The sweet 11 year old herself told me about the hididng away and eating one meal a day. SO there. I suppose SHE is a liar now?
Wow, can’t wait until this gets to trial and I can hear some TRUTH because the only ones speaking it are the ones who can’t be heard.
I am a friend to the family and I have to say here that the child, Nattie, was NOT properly homeschooled and was clearly neglected. I can say that based on fact, based on Washington state law and the school district’s own findings. If she weren’t in jail right now, she’d be charged with neglect and truancy.
Everyone talks about how happy this child was, but I know her, I have seen both daughters suffer because of the mental instability of their mother. One day when she wasn’t sure if her real father was going to be home (on time), she said, “Oh great, another dad missing….” and started flashing back to times of driving around in her mom’s suburban hunting Thomas down in various crack houses.
I don’t care what happens about the trial, I’m just glad these two precious daughters of theirs have had a year to breathe without the drama of that couple.
RENATA,
THAT SURE LOOKED LIKE NATTIE ACROSS THE TABLE FROM ME.
MAYBE IT WAS JUST A BLOW UP DOLL TO “FOOL” THE POLICE?
I MEAN, THEY WERE “RUNNING” AND “HIDING”, RIGHT?
DID IT OCCURE TO ANYONE TO TRY CALLING THEIR CELL PHONES?
THAT’S HOW I GOT AHOLD OF THEM EVERY SINGLE DAY!
AND ADRIANNA, YOU CLAIM TO BE A “FRIEND” OF THE FAMILY?
IN THIS GROUP, YOU WOULD BE HARD PRESSED TO SORT OUT THE FRIENDS FROM THE SCUMBAGS. ANY OF YOU EVER LOSE YOUR BABY?
I WON’T BE BACK HERE. YOU ALL ARE A VERY SICK AND PATHETIC GROUP OF PEOPLE.
MAC
Yes, it is hard to sort out the scumbags.
I wouldn’t be surprised if you were one of the people they were staying with, so you’d have seen her. Unless you’re saying they were with you the whole time (so you’d know) because reports state they stayed in many local Seattle hotels then I don’t see how yelling at me about what I heard with my own ears helps.
What does the sadness of losing the baby have to do with true family friendship? We are without hearts because we are curious to understand the whole story - which doesn’t jive with you? So you yell and call us liars? Whatever. You’re a true champion for your cause.
Is it illegal to harbor a fugitive?
Spaghetti, from what I understand, while the did remain unavailable to police, until there is a warrant, there is no fugitive action - got it?
However, being unavailable to police for questioning is a no no. They don’t like it.
Spaghetti, you are correct. Harboring a fugitive IS illegal. So is “Aiding & Abetting a fugitive”. Thats what the dectective told me. BUT unfortunately, they had no warrants at the time, so didn’t matter. And they did not have to be “available” to the police because they had an attorney “on record”, which (by law) ALL corrispondance should have gone through him first. But obviously that was not the case. They were willing to fly to California at ANY time asked. They just were never asked.
Renata, I was not “yelling” at you. I apologise. It’s an old habit from a previous job where everything had to be in caps. Sorry. I can tell you I spoke to them (and/or met them) EVERY day on their cell phones and I also put them up in hotels (none in Seattle) when needed (because of my job I move around allot) Got the receipts to prove it. They weren’t running or hiding. They were actually contemplating selling the house in Shelton because Lorrie was having a very hard time going back there. She was having nightmares. Nothing more, nothing less. For those of you that claim to be friends or reletives, how about trying to see the GOOD in these people instead of just the bad? NO ONE is perfect. I don’t think any of us would pass the scrutiny of what these two are going through. There are a few on here that made “deals” with the DA down in San Diego to “quash” warrants up here for testifying against them. That would give REALLY good incentive to come up with REALLY good stories, right? One person also STOLE from them and there are more than enough witnesses to prove that when the time comes. And we already know “where” all that money went.
This entire thing is sad. I brought up the lost baby because until you lose your baby, how can you judge others on how they grieve?
No one is perfect. Not you, not I, no one. We ALL have skeletons in our closets. Try to focus on the good in thier hearts. They LOVED thier baby.
Old Mac, the whole thing is horribly sad. I am ignorant of the legal system, so I don’t understand how the whole murder plea idea works.
I don’t doubt they loved their baby. Not one minute. Could they just agree that medicating him was wrong and take a lesser charge? Or, are they standing on the idea that it wasn’t a bad idea to them at the time after all?
Well they have an ER doctor that told them it was OK to give the doses they gave…….herein lies the issue. That’s why T&L are convinced it was SIDS. They COULD accept a lesser charge if offered, and they have already served the time for a lesser charge, but then they feel because of the ER visit, they did nothing worng. And with ALL the recent FDA recalls, they may be very right in doing so!
I just found out that the San Diego DA’s office has the HIGHEST conviction rate in the Country and even had their own reality TV show on NBC called “Law & Order, The Real World”.
I think they have paid enough for even an accident. They loved that baby and would have done anything to save him. It might come down to “Do they want to br right or do they want to be incarcerated”?
It truly is a tragic sutiation.
Old Mac
Are the children left behind ok? I read there was a 20 year old and a 10 year old? How are they doing with all this?
Spaghetti - the way they went about it casts horrible light on their case. If the family didn’t know where the little girl was (even if Mac knew where they were) then how terrible for them? How scary to hear caretakers are possibly being charged with murder, they have your child and no one knows where they are?
I think at least they owe the family a BIG apology for the horrible fear and selfishness they showed by dragging that kid along (who should have been being schooled, btw.)
There is no debate about the fact that their fearful and reactionary behavior has really hurt them and others. Also has helped to set many against them, and has given fuel to the DA & cops to cast them as creeps who must be guilty. Not the whole story though, and reacting against authority even to his detriment has been something that has dogged Thomas forever. Deep wounds, tough upbringing, tender heart all mean he perceives threats very easily and acts to protect himself. it looks crazy to others but there is a bit of a rationale there if you know the whole story. something to grow out of for sure. does not make him a murderer, or even dangerous to the baby, however. Not sure everyone can make the distinction, though, which is scary if you are going to face a jury!
“Caretakers” charged with murder?
Those “Caretakers” were her MOTHER and they were NOT charged with MURDER unitl 90 minutes prior to their arrest! That’s how they got arrested was being told by their “family” to go pick up Nattie at Northgate! Sound familiar anyone?
Get the FACTS straight. That’s why this entire thing has been blown out of proportion!
The “family” could make one phone call and spoke to ANY of them at ANY time!
“Caretakers” charged with murder?
Those “Caretakers” were her MOTHER and they were NOT charged with MURDER until 90 minutes prior to their arrest! That’s how they got arrested was being told by their “family” to go pick up Nattie at Northgate! Sound familiar anyone?
Get the FACTS straight. That’s why this entire thing has been blown out of proportion!
The “family” could make one phone call and spoke to ANY of them at ANY time!
Mac, we are not heartless idiots who want to see innocent people, or even not so innocent people denied any justice. We just have to respectfully disagree with your version of the truth.
It is not legal to keep the location of your child from your ex-husband. That is in conflict with any legal parenting agreement. Phone calls don’t count. Especially since I read they had several phone numbers and even sold one when they were downtown so it couldn’t be traced.
Don’t act like it was blown out of proportion by the family (which you keep putting in quotes for some weird reason?). We aren’t idiots out to get them and please don’t keep acting that way.
Renata - just drop it - sounds like you’ll have to wait until the trial to hear some version of the story that isn’t biased either way.
The ex husband HAD the daughter when they were arrested. They were going back to Northgate to pick her up per HIS “request”, so it sounds like he was able to speak to them at some point. That is until he handed HIS cell phone over to Tim????
Selling phone numbers downtown so they couldn’t be traced?
Someone has been reading waaaay too many spy novels.
So hearing the young one make her mother “promise” that she would NEVER have to go live with her father?
I heard THAT myself while we were all sitting eating ice creme.
You’re right Spaghetti.
Just an FYI…………cell phone numbers cannot be “traced” by anybody. Just a location narrowed down within about a 10 block radius.
I mistyped but will not continue to argue with you.
The Cell PHONE that was used was resold to someone downtown.
The End.
I asked how the kids are doing now and no one answered.
That poor child, if she is stuck with her dad and wishes she wasn’t. She must hate missing all her friends and brother and home and school friends. Oh wait - she didn’t have school friends. But still.
She could have promised her mother anything at that point though so that could have been meaningless.
Oh, and Mac - how would you ever know about the 10 block radius?
You know a lot, for sure…
Actually it can track to the closest cell “tower” or about 10 blocks. Hey, I’m not out to make enemies or anything like that and I don’t just automatically believe anything I’m told either, whether it’s on a blog like this OR from T&L themselves. We ALL don’t know exactly what happened and won’t know until the trial comes out. Some things I DO know for sure. it’s not my “version”, it’s just the truth.
Renata, I don’t understand what you mean by you mistyped?
I just saw a few things that I knew were not true and piped in. I’m truly sorry if I offended ANYONE on here. That’s not my nature. I truly care about T&L and also Nattie and baby T2. I don’t want harm to come to ANYONE. The scary thing here has been you don’t really know who you’re talking to. It could me Matt Greco for all I know! I have never, for even a second, thought ANY of you were “heartless idiots”. I’ve just seen what was supposed to be an innocent comment turned into an entire investigation and some things that have been said were NOT true. I have NO idea how the kids are doing. I was told on Christmas day when Lorrie got to call Nattie, the first thing Nattie said was “How is my daddy? Is he OK?” That doesn’t sound like something a young girl would say to someone who she didn’t like. If Thomas & Lorrie were keeping the whereabouts of Nattie from her Father, then I was not aware of it and they never said they were. I WAS able to call them and/or see them almost every day, so I don’t understand how no one could reach them, unless they were “choosing” who they wanted to talk to, I really don’t know. All I can tell you is they were two very lost and heartbroken souls. I would like to make peace with anyone I have offended. I’m just a little bit passionate about my friends who lost their son. And then to be accused of causing his death, well, I can’t even imagine the pain. So my sincerest apologies to anyone I offended. I’m truly sorry. I don’t normally act this way. I guess I’m just a little protective as I have lost a child myself.
Blessings to all. Mac
Ummm,
it is frustrating to hear all sorts of distortions about this. I have heard the most rediculous things and they were the result of folks talking each other into a frenzy. one person I talked with in shelton spewed about 10 ‘facts’ at me. Not one was remotely true. Can you imagine being on the short end of that kind of swirling ball of misinformation, loosing your kid, being charged with murder, knowing that there were kernels of truth to lots of it but the sum total was not in touch with reality? regarding these facts, I happened to know the truth not because T&L told me otherwise but because I had talked to many folks, read some things and attended the prelim where I heard the prosecution’s case. My observation is that particularly folks who know them some and have felt ‘burned’ one way are the ones who have fallen prey to this stuff and gotten all wound up about it. the sort of twisted thing to all of you who have not talked with them is how well they are managing in there. They are different people now and though you won’t choose to believe that, you are missing out a bit on life by not reaching out with some grace and understanding, even for the hurtful stuff, because the good parts of them are flourishing where they are. because of this, they are becoming, in a very humble way, thankful for all of this. Everything has been burned away in their lives — total scorched earth. If what some have said about either of them were so, they would be dead or crazy by now, but the thing is they are actually maturing and growing in there. if you are family or former friend, mend a bridge, swallow your pride (you might be wrong, you know) and send them some love.
Well put Gabby.
Gabby, everything I’ve seen you write has been compassionate.
Thank you.
Love to all is what we need.
Did anyone say that the child didn’t like living with the step dad?
Oh, I guess Christina wayyy back up front. Well. I hope they are ok now.
The good news is the children of the previous marriage are hanging in there. The oldest has decided to carry on with her life without her mom for now and does not contact her.
The youngest has been in school and is thriving. She writes her mom occasionally and even has spoken with her on the phone on several occasions. Her natural father allows calls to his daughter from the mom without hesitation. Those close (and I mean close, not people who have implicated themselves into things) feel the children are doing exceptionally well, if not better, with their mom out of the photo. As far as I’ve seen, the dad and step-mom do everything they can (including psychological counseling for both girls) to try to heal the wounds.
The youngest doesn’t ask about Thomas, nor does she ever write him. That’s just a fact. Not sure if it shows anything specific, but its true.
Old Mac Said: “If Thomas & Lorrie were keeping the whereabouts of Nattie from her Father, then I was not aware of it and they never said they were.”
How about asking them sometime when you’re on the phone with them and see what they tell you.
Now that you think he may not have known would you concede it COULD appear as though they were taking her? Could you at least see that?
Taking her where? I know when they talked about Nattie spending the weekend with her Dad often, so I at no time go the impression they were “hiding” her at all. I can say I never heard either Thomas or Lorrie ever say a bad word about Nattie’s father in front of her.
The way the entire situation was at the time leading up to their arrest, I just didn’t see any signs that they were hiding themselves or Nattie. I would love to agree with you, but I myself did not see it.
Even if you don’t see it doesn’t mean that the feelings the family had of fear were not real. Even one day not knowing where my child was would be too hard for me to tolerate. Especially with all the rumors and everything. This whole thing is horrible.
When someone calls you up and says, “I was just told that Lorrie and Thomas are talking about going to Canada. One way ticket.” and they have your 10 year old, it can create fear. Even if they didn’t have passports, and even if you’ll say that they never said that, that child was awol for seven days w/o the family having a clue where she was.
Sheer terror.
Even if we are ‘misinformed’ we are human, we were scared. For all three of them.
That’s the problem with this entire ordeal. The rumors!
Even her ex knows her better than that!
Lorrie would NEVER take her away from her father. If he really thinks about it, he knows that’s the truth.
Mac
spaghetti, I totally agree with you, but if the EX stops and really thinks about it, he should KNOW that Lorrie would NEVER take her away from her father. Come on. Think about it. She’s not a monster and she knows how the middle child feels about her father. Even Lorrie said to say “Think about it EP?” You know her. She would never “run” with the child. That’s the problem with this entire case is all the rumors that continue to get spread around!
This entire thing is very, VERY sad. I spoke to Lorrie this morning and she spent about the first 20 minutes just crying.
This woman truly misses ALL her children.
Mac
Why should he or any one else believe anything that pathological liar says? Think about it? Then he’d know?
You think about it. (see how much sense that makes).
Crying doesn’t make you guilt free.
No one really knows Lorrie. She can make you believe the sun rises in the West. If he really knew her, then he’d have known she was having an affair with his boss.
Yet, on the other hand, he does really know her. Which is exactly why he moved to protect his daughters.
You both are forgetting that he was also married to her and was at one time, in love with her. She is the mother of his daughters.
He DOES know the real Lorrie even if either of you don’t lke that answer. An affair with his boss? Now wasn’t there something about him breaking her nose……..
Come on now girls, quit throwing your your opinions of Lorrie in there. These two people have two beautiful daughters together.
Regardless of what did or did not happen in the past.
The “girls” live within spitting distance to me now.
Be nice and play fair and quit spreading rumors. You can hate her for all the horrible things she may or may not have done to YOU, but don’t condemn her for loving her children. She loves them.
And her tears are real. And tears don’t make you a “baby killer” either!
Mac
THANK YOU MARK!
The tit for tat thing is unnecessary. Cheating and broken noses don’t change the profound sadness of the whole thing. Everyone involved has been in tears at one time or another over this thing.
Renata,
I would be absolutely terrified too if I had gotten that type of call. I don’t know “why” someone would have made that call, except the rumor mill working everyone into a frenzy again. I can tell you I NEVER went 7 days without knowing where they were. Ever. Whoever made that call was very cruel, although thought they had good intentions, at the time. Thomas, Lorrie, and little N were NEVER going to CANADA! That I would bet my OWN kids lives on!
I can even prove where they were every night. EVERY night.
Mac
spaghetti,
I completely agree! We have a precious and beautiful baby boy (who was born on my birthday) that received his Angel wings WAY too soon. Now matter how or why this tragety happened, through accident, or plain stupidity, or SIDS, there ARE two very grieving parents who lost thier only son. This child was loved by his entire family. Especially his sister. I look at the pics of them in Disneyland and smile at much happier times. And that little girl has a very special little blue stuffed dog that was a gift to her brother on his birthday.
SadMac
YES Miranda, having an affair DOES mean you’re a “BABY KILLER” in the State of California!
Good Lord. Get a grip.
Wow - where did you get that? Cheating and broken noses don’t make anyone a criminal. You’re an odd bird. Crying doesn’t make you guilty. Crying doesn’t make you innocent.
I will need to moderate myself though - I am angry with Lorrie for her choices and while it feels good to vent a little, I think it would be more ladylike for me to just say that I don’t like her, and I hope her girls are able to reconstruct their idea motherhood before they have their own.
Oh, and when did he break her nose? Curious minds want to know. He did grab her arm in anger and spent a night in jail. He was overcome with anger and lost it. Bad man! (Imagine how you’d feel if you found out your boss and wife were bumping uglies?)
Oh wait - I’m asking you to understand something outside of your belief system, so nevermind.
Isn’t the first husband a convicted felon for spousal abuse?
I read that somewhere recently.
Anyone else hear that?
Just curious.
SDSB
Yes. The evening he discovered his ex wife was having an affair, he grabbed her arm to take her to the computer to see an incriminating email (from her lover). She had severe bruising and was afraid of him. The police were called and he was reported. In the morning, he presented himself to the police and spent the night in jail. He went to anger management/domestic violence counseling for nearly a year and completed it. He would be the first one to admit that what he did was horrible.
He’s never been known as a violent man, and for how bad the whole thing looked, he experienced overwhelming support by his community of friends. It is something he is not proud of, but does not hide, as it has made him a better man.
That’ wonderful her got counseling! Thankfully, I have never been in that type of situation, but I think grabbing an arm would be a “minor” reaction for me! This may sound terrible, but if the “mother” was having affairs, is the ex husband even sure those kids are his? Just a thought.
Thank you for explaining it to me. I’m trying very hard to sort this case out but it seems more and more comes out. Just when you “side” with one side, another completely different side appears!
I don’t know anyone involved, but I’m an author who writes crime/mystery novels and I find this entire case very interesting.
Thankyou,
SDSB
I seem to have put an end to this conversation!
Not intentional. Sorry.
[...] Another Miscarriage of Justice - yep San Diego again [...]
SDSB- Don’t worry about it, I think the conversation just about died out. About the children- they are definitely both his. I won’t go into details on a public forum, but there is no doubt. And yes, the ‘arm grab’ was horrible, but even at the time I had no doubt that she had pushed him until he lost his temper. He is a very strong man, and if he had truly wanted to beat her, she would have been in much worse shape. The bruise on her wrist was the only mark on her. She had been denying the affair for months, and he was half crazy with it. When he saw the ‘proof’ he was trying to confront her with it, and she pulled away. He forgot his strength and gripped her arm way too hard. He never made an excuse for this, and took full responsibility. And just for the record, I was never friends with him. I got the facts from her.
WOW! It’s amazing to me how these things always play out.
So what exactly is happing now? I had heard of a trial date in June.
Is that still a go does anyone know?
Are they going to allow the public in for it?
Thank you for your response Jane. I apprecite the inside scoop whenever I can get it.
Does it look like a slam dunk prosecution?
SDSB
If you want to stay updated go to Yahoo look at groups and type in “Lorrie Boettger” they have a “save the boettger’s!” thing going on, but that’s where I stay updated.
I do know for a fact that both children are the first husband’s, no doubt about it. And as far as the “arm grab” I also think that she pushed the ex husband to his breaking point, and then some, and yes he did take full responsibility for what he did, but I’m sure he could have, and maybe he should have done more. Just an opinion.
Do you have to “join” the Yahoo group, or can just anyone read it?
They go to trial the 25th is what SD is saying.
I’ll be there for sure! I really want to follow this story.
Thank you for the info! I appreciate any help.
SDSB
You don’t have to join to read, just to post.
We are all eager to hear the story move forward. SDSB, there may be a book in there for you!
Wow.
I just got a Google alert and link to an article that stated they pled guilty and will be sentenced to two years. If time served is honored, they will be out in nine months.
It’s my understanding that one is out in 6 weeks, and the other is out in 6 months.
I have not had time to post an article on this. I hope to have an article up late today.
Seems clear that locking them up was a way to break them. Typical of Bonnie Dumanis.
Mark, your are SO right! The system broke them down.
NOT anything they did.
I hope you are joking, Mark. It sounds like you’re saying they were guilt free and the system made them confess to something they didn’t do?
Mark, you’re RIGHT on that one!
Wear them down and they will plead to anything!
Even with evidence that the DA broke the law……..
Sentencing on the 25th of July, she should get out the next day, he won’t be getting out til December because, he plead guilty to felony child abuse, and she plead guilty to involuntary manslaughter. I have the story if anyone out there is looking for it. Just let me know.
Mark.. I agree with Melinda, you are making it sound like they are innocent, and the system “made them” say they were guilty. Maybe that’s not what you intended when you said what you did? Maybe that is what you intended? I don’t know.
It really annoys me when people put words in my mouth.
It is well known that DAs and Cops use incaceration and overcharging to get convictions. Bonnie Dumanis is a hack who is desparate to rescue her reputation which was ruined with the Cynthia Sommer case.
Mark: “Seems clear that locking them up was a way to break them. Typical of Bonnie Dumanis.”
Am I not saying the same thing, that you said, but in different words? I don’t think I’m really that far out there.. anyone?
No, you are arguing they are guilty. I am saying they were mistreated by the system.
Beyond that it’s clear …
… I am sitting here flabbergasted that so many people just don’t get this. I can’t even think straight.
I am stunned by how many people think this case is open and shut. I have to assume it’s because you are all more worried about your feelings than about the law.
The thinking seems to be: “I would never have done that to my child. They should rot in prison for life, and then burn in hell.”
Flabbergasted, it’s not even close to describing how frustrating this is.
I am sorry they were mistreated by the system. I feel it got in the way of true justice this time.
People make MISTAKES!
Like how many parents have accidently backed over their child in the driveway?
How many Dad’s forgot to drop baby at daycare and go to work with child asslep in the car, only to find out the baby is dead to heat exhaustion?
THESE ARE ACCIDENTS! NOT MURDER PEOPLE……….ACCIDENTS!
I was stunned when I heard it was to be a murder case anyway. I thought that was overkill, but some accountability had to be taken.
I see and just how much is enough? The “there outta be a law” attitude is why our country is so screwed up. Just because you disagree with what they did, does not mean it should be illegal or is illegal.
If we carry your thinking to it’s natural conclusion, then you will have to answer to the government for everything you do. That is not what the founding father’s wanted, desired, or set up.
Sadly it is what we now are dangerously close to having; a nanny state where accidents are criminal behavior. It started with no-fault insurance, moved to no-fault divorce, and now is in our schools as sex-ed and condom distribution with abortion counseling (no-fault sex). We are dangerously close to a society where the law is bent to suit the powerful and punish anyone they believe is wrong; even if what was done is not illegal.
We teach irresponsibility in schools, preach it in many churches, and our elected officials tell us it’s not our fault when we don’t succeed or don’t get a job, or don’t become wealthy; then we put people in jail who make decisions that the government does not like. Even worse, some are so far above the law they can trump up charges, lie to Judges to keep people from getting bail (a Right, BTW), so they can pressure them into accepting a plea deal.
I seem to be one of the few who takes issue with that. That is scary.
The DA knows they can get away with this because “it’s for the children”, “we are protecting children”. What happens when they decide the car you drive is dangerous to children and you sit in jail for 15 months awaiting trial on charges of attempted murder? You will gladly take a plea on Vehicular manslaughter.
Will you get the point then? Don’t think it can’t happen, either. It is already happening. They make you feel good about their abuse by saying things like “we need accountability”; they however are accountable to no one.
You do realise that the law is NOT about accountability but about protecting society from predators, right?
I have to say that I knew these two briefly (Thankfully). Regardless of being set free, they will still have to live in the prison they have created for themselves. And, I can live with that!
No one can change the outcome of this case. I’m comfortable with the fact that they will have to live with the rest of the world knowing they plead guilty to the worst crime imaginable!
I don’t care what their clan of supporters has to say about it. Only these two know why they did what they did. We will never really get the truth out of the two of them. You can say: “oh, I’ve known these people for x amount of years and they would never intentionally do something like this”! The truth of the matter is, there are serial killers who live among family and friends. These same family and friends would stand on a stack of Bibles and say: ” He/She was the nicest person I’ve ever met. He/She was loyal and came over and helped us in the yard, cooked dinner for us, played with our children, went to church EVERY Sunday (whatever that proves), and we never saw anything that would make us think he/she would kill all these woman, men, children, or whatever!” And guess what? THEY EXIST!! These type of people don’t go around advertising their sick inner thoughts. Its unfortunate for sure. People do this sort of thing all the time.
Yes there are parents who make “mistakes”. Running their kid over in the drive-way, leaving their kid in the car as they work away…
Or, my personal favorite, leaving the kid on the ROOF of the car and driving off with them!!!!? WTH? These people obviously don’t need to be making babies to start with, but somehow the universe lets this happen. Some people consider this a natural thinning of the herd.
One more thing in closing. I have 4 children. I had my 21 year old son when I was just a baby myself. He had the worse colic I have ever come across, even to this day!! Not to mention the liver problems, bowl problems and other health related issues that contributed to his constant crying. I’m happy to say he’s in college now and doing very well. But my point is…. I knew better at 18 than these two jerks knew at 38. How shameful is that?
Thank goodness there are people in the world like you and I. Those who don’t drive off with our head in our ass. Those of us who aren’t so excited to get to work that we forget to drop our offspring at the daycare center! And those who aren’t eager to over medicate our children. Its all a sad, sad situation. But I can live with that too.
Thanks.
Thank you Marie, that was perfect!
Mark, are you trying to tell me that giving an infant child adult medication, oh wait adult medication(S) is ok? That they did NOTHING wrong? You are out of your mind if you think that is an ok thing. These are NOT good people, no matter how many “good” things they do in life cannot make up for the fact that they killed their child.
“Just because you disagree with what they did, does not mean it should be illegal or is illegal.”
What they did was illegal! How can you say it wasn’t?
They plead guilty to lesser charges because they didn’t want to risk going to prison for 15 years to life, but they still plead GUILTY, they could have gone to trial and possibly have won. But, I think they knew that there was a greater possibility of them being accused of Murder then to get a “not guilty” vote from the jury. If I was in their place and I knew that I did NOTHING wrong I would not plead guilty to something that I knew I didn’t do.
As for them being “mistreated by the system” can you tell me one case that is not somewhat flaud. Of course not because every case ever has some sort of flaw, it’s all politics. I am not going to say “oh poor them they have had it so hard”, because they put themselves in this position. The day that they started giving their infant son adult medications is the day that they decided that if they got caught they would go to jail, for at least child endangerment. They are grown adults who need to take responsibility for their actions, yeah it sucks, but that’s life.
Lastly; “Sadly it is what we now are dangerously close to having; a nanny state where accidents are criminal behavior.”
So they accidently crushed up pills and gave it to the baby? Whoops they slipped and fell and dropped some crushed pills in the baby’s mouth? Oh they didn’t know not to give the baby adult pills, intended for adult size people? Thomas was an EMT and Lorrie was a midwife, these aren’t stupid people, they are people who have done stupid things. I have done stupid things in my life, but none of them involve killing anyone.
If you knew these people you would understand why so many of us are saying, yes it’s an open and shut case.
Just a FYI….San Diego has the HIGHEST “conviction” rate in the Country.
I wonder why? Does that mean there are more “bad” guys and girls here? NO! It’s because they lock you up, whether you’re guilty or not, then try to build some type of case, and just sit back and file delay after delay after delay, until they finally wear you down to where you’d plead guilty to ANYTHING! For instance…..(TRUE story that just recently happened)
A man is charged with rape and locked up in San Diego. It has already been PROVEN the man was NOT even in the STATE at the time of the rape. You would “think” that would get him off.
Many witnesses, documents, etc.
NOPE! So there he sat in one of our beautiful San Diego jails until the DA’s offcie offered him a “plea deal” after 10 MONTHS.
He had to sign a plea deal that he was guilty of JAYWALKING before they would turn him loose. He signed and walked away. He did NOT commit the rape OR the jaywalking! Yet, because he signed the plea deal for his freedom, he cannot come back and file a lawsuit against San Diego. Sounds pretty amazing, but it’s TRUE!
The San Diego DA’s office is completely out of control!
They really don’t CARE if you did anything wrong or not. As long as THEY “keep their numbers up”, their boss is happy!
As for their “clan of supporter’s”, I believe you mean people who actually KNOW this couple. According to you, you knew them briefly, (thankfully for them as well).
And for someone to make a comment about a parent “so excited to get to work he forgets his baby in the back seat, these people should obviously don’t “NEED” to be making babies”? WTF?
Did you even SEE the anguish on that young fathers face?
You had four kids that survived. Well, I guess that crowns you mother of the century? You have NEVER made a mistake as a parent? Ever? Really? That makes you better than 99.99% of the rest of us. But THANK GOD there are people like you and Mark! Everyone else is an idiot in your eyes?
PLease tell me what it feels like to be the perfect parent? Because I would really like to know.
Children DYING “is a natural thinning of the herd”?
After 4 miscarriages and then losing my only child to SIDS, does that mean I should be locked up also? Obviously I did SOMETHING wrong to lose all my children, right? MY “herd” was completely wiped out. Congratulations, your children lived. You’re “comfortable knowing they pled guilty to the worse crime immaginable?
Even if it’s NOT true? Even if it was their ONLY way out?
This couple (if you actually READ the evidence against them, gave their child INFANT medication (NOT multiple and has since been PULLED from all store shelves) on the advise of a Emergency room doctor in Washington. The MOTHER took Sominex due to a lifetime of insomnia. The baby was brest fed. Her own doctor told her it was SAFE to do so. This was ALL part of the experts testimony that will never be heard.
But THAT is how Mr. Greco came up with the “cocktail” he so loves to throw out to the press!
And yet you compare this couple to “serial killers”? Do you think they had this child, just so they would have one to KILL later when they felt like it. Like when they go to Disneyland on vacation? Yes, I’m sure that made their vacation complete! Doing CPR on your own 6 month old son. It’s been years, but I still remember doing CPR on my own child lost.
As a taxpayer, this case sickens me. What the DA’s office did (and DIDN’T do) should sicken everyone on San Diego.
THANK YOU Mark for your words of wisdom and TRUTH!
PLEASE announce when you will be running for office.
You HAVE my vote!
Dear “Friend”…….so which “family” are you a FRIEND of exactly?
You saying you’re a “friend” and then saying what you’re saying seems like a big contradiction.
Just curious
Okay…….”As for their “clan of supporter’s”, I believe you mean people who actually KNOW this couple.”
Comment: “Why yes I do! Those would be the individuals I was speaking of. You assumed correctly.”
“And for someone to make a comment about a parent “so excited to get to work he forgets his baby in the back seat, these people should obviously don’t “NEED” to be making babies”? WTF?”
Comment: Ummm what else would you call it then? If its not stupidity, and its not being so eager to get to work that you FORGET YOUR KIDS IN THE CAR!?!?! HELLO Time to wake up! Then WTH is it called?
“You had four kids that survived. Well, I guess that crowns you mother of the century? Believe it or not there are actually mothers out there who have had more then four kids who have survived! I think that makes THEM mothers of the century. You have NEVER made a mistake as a parent? Ever? Really? That makes you better than 99.99% of the rest of us. But THANK GOD there are people like you and Mark! Everyone else is an idiot in your eyes?”
Comment: I’m not Mark. There are a lot of idiots and this proves my point! So, let me tell you this. I am certain I have made my fair share of mistakes. Just like other mothers out there. I never said I was mother of the century, those are your words, not mine. However, my mistakes NEVER included feeding my child crushed up adult medications, that “accidentally” KILLED HIM. That seems to be the issue here. No one wants to take responsibility for ANYTHING anymore, unless of course they are forced to. I am glad they have had a little bit of time to think about it.
“Children DYING “is a natural thinning of the herd”?
Obviously I did SOMETHING wrong to lose all my children, right? MY “herd” was completely wiped out. Congratulations, your children lived.”
Comment: I’m sorry for the loss of your children. I’m sure that is very painful. But the reality is, my children were born alive, just like baby Thomas. They were not miscarriages. Then as they got older, like baby Thomas, they lived because I took care of them! I took them to a Doctor when they were ill. I never decided I knew more than the doctor and started medicating my children on my own. I knew they were fragile little beings and wanted the very best. I knew where they were at all times. I knew if there was a child in my driveway because they certainly wouldn’t be there without ME, THEIR MOTHER. I also knew if there was a child in the back seat of my car. I never forgot my child on the roof of my car, or anywhere else for that matter. For God sake stop making excuses for these people! Thats whats so sickening here. Its not the people like me who happen to sound the words of reason. Okay so the guy has a terrible look on his face when he FINALLY figured out what the heck he had done. YES, people like that SHOULD NEVER HAVE CHILDREN!
Comment: Also I along with a great deal of others believes that this is true. Dumb people do dumb things. When they get together and breed, they have more dumb people, who do dumb things.
Comment: My comparison to serial killers was to make the simple point that YOU DON’T REALLY KNOW ANYONE! There are people who believe everything these two tell them. What other story do they think their going to tell? I didn’t do anything wrong, is the obvious thing to say. Isn’t it? End of story. Figure it out!
Comment: Oh yeah, and I’m sure they were locked up in San Diego because they were innocent, and San Diego just couldn’t wait to lock these two innocent people up! And not because there was any sufficient evidence. Yep they made it all up, I’m sure.
Come on.. Please…….
You know what.. since you guys know everything about this case, and everything about these people, and everything about the DA’s office, and everything about Matt Greco, I am going to leave you guys a few words of wisdom; Watch what you say because you just might end up regreting it later.
Yes I am a friend of the family.. which probably means that I am, and have been closer to these people then any of you. So for you all to judge me is rediculous!
I’m done. You obviously ‘know’ what happened because you were all there when the baby was born, everyday of it’s VERY short life, and were there at the funeral, and there for EVERY court appointment. So I guess just live in that world that you guys know everything about, and don’t listen to anyone who tries to challenge you.
Oh and as a matter of fact. Just as there are rare cases where innocent people do go to jail for crimes they didn’t commit. There are also those who get nailed years later for crimes they did commit, when science finally catches up with them. =)
Marie,
I completely agree! Thank you for putting that out there! Like I said before these are not stupid adults we are talking about, one was an EMT and the other a Midwife, that means they had to go to school and learn about medications, and how the human body works, and probably how much the human body can withstand. So they NEED to take responsibility for what they have done, I think they are getting off WAAY easier then they even know.
And by the way.. they did not give him baby medication.. sorry unisom is not intended for babies especially when it’ts mixed with benadryl, which makes you drousey anyways! Are you kidding me.. you think that this is some terrible crime against these two good people.. no. They made a stupid decision to give their infant ADULT (not baby) medications. If you can somehow justify that being ok.. maybe you are unstable? Sorry.. but there is something seriously wrong with what they did, and they deserve to be in jail, and so does anyone else who does the same thing.
Oy Vey. Doing something wrong does not make it illegal. It may be stupid … to some people … it may be immoral … to some people … does not make a crime.
If we started locking up people for being stupid, 80% of politicians, trailer parks, ghettos, barrios, Ph.Ds, and school teachers would be in prison. Oh yeah, and 100% of school administrators. The numbers would be higher in California.
Beyond that, if the case for murder was so strong then why plea deal to “child abuse”, or INVOLUNTARY manslaughter? Those are a long way from murder. The Child Abuse charge is a desperate attempt to save face and make the “it’s about the children crowd” happy; as it seems to have done. *hint hint*
Even more bizarre is that those who are “shocked” it was a murder charge to begin with; are blind as to the behavior of the current crop of DAs. Let’s see, why would that be? Oh yeah; “it’s about the children”, and “they did something WRONG and must pay” no matter if it was illegal or NOT.
The fact that they were charged with murder for a crime that was clearly NOT murder, tells me that the DA was out to get them no matter what. They did, and many of you are cheering; and you don’t care how many rights, or laws were broken to “get them”.
No doubt you miss the days of the Salem Witch Trials.
Anyone know the difference between meds for kids, and meds for adults? Dosage, in all but the rarest of cases (meds you would never get OTC). Yep, the size of the med. Med dosage is based upon body weight, it never takes into account tolerance. Doctors do this routinely. We, the public are considered too stupid to do this. Most people have been convinced that Doctors are perfect and the only ones who can determine dosage. What a crock of bull-crap.
I currently take Zytrex for my allergies. Why can I now buy it over the counter (OTC)? Ditto for the ‘purple pill’ and several others. If they are too powerful for us idiots (the public) before to get them without a prescription, why are they suddenly O.K for us to get now? Did we suddenly smarten up? No, the patent expired and the price was going to drop, which makes prescription filling costly. You see a truly powerful drug IS NOT AVAILABLE OTC NO MATTER THE COST.
You know why labels have disclaimers (aka warnings)? Ask an (honest, and competent) attorney and they will tell you the warnings are for protection of the drug company, NOT THE USER OF THE DRUG. Plausible deniability. I always find it funny that lawyers pretend the disclaimers are for anything else (DAs are lawyers BTW) other than their client’s protection. Even more bizarre that a Judge would buy into this bull-crap. Guess they have to keep up the Oz illusion of the law.
Yea, it’s all about Justice with Bonnie “dumbass” Dumanis. More like it’s all about keeping her job by using the power of the DAs office to break people so she can win.
In other words they used her to get him, and vice-versa. No doubt you witch-hunters are just fine with that.
Yep, spend another 3 years in jail to get to trial and maybe get a fair trial. Yea right, like that is gonna happen when the DA has decided you are guilty and the public is too stupid to figure out the DA is crook.
Are we now going to go after the FDA who should have known that this was a problem? Guess not, they were not the parents, and the Feds can fight back. Good thing we have the government on our side.
THANK YOU Mark for explaining the “nut’s and bolt’s” of this!
Then in this mornings paper it says the DA’s office has been RECORDING conversations between defense attorney’s and their clients? ISN’T THAT ILLEAGAL?
I think that violates attorney/client privledge doesn’t it?
We need to get Bonnie Crooked OUT OF SAN DIEGO!
She’s and Greco are worse than a crooked polititions!
Oh wait….they ARE crooked polititions!
Can we IMPEACH the entire DA’s office?
As a matter of fact: The vast majority of criminal cases are resolved through a “plea bargain”. Its really no surprise they were offered a plea bargain. Secondly: IT IS ABOUT THE CHILDREN! That is the point that so many people are missing for some reason. And saving them from people like this. Why is that so tough to understand?
Umm yes I think we are aware that dosage is the difference. But thank you Mark. FYI, Just in case there is someone else out there decides to pull this stunt on their kid. Here’ a clue: In case you are too stupid to figure it out. There is one MAJOR difference in crushing up pills that a meant for ADULTS, and giving them to a CHILD and taking a pill that has the right dose for the persons size. Dr.s are usually pretty clear on this. The one biggest difference is that with A LOT of drugs, when you crush up a pill, and take it, you have NO idea how much of the medication is in that portion you took. It’s how lots of overdoses occur. Also, pills often have special coatings that affect how they are released into the body. Crushing them can mean this complex system is disturbed. In addition, special coatings can mean a drug is absorbed over a longer period of time. And the Boettgers AT THE VERY LEAST, should have known that! Had they known as much as they thought they did, it could very well have saved them from making a very fatal “mistake”. IF, thats even a point of argument…….
I really have no other feelings on the case. I feel terrible for the baby who had to suffer, and really never had a chance. I feel horrible for the girls. Sam you have the right idea girl! You are extremely intelligent, and wise far beyond your years! God Bless you, your sister and your father! You’re obviously in good hands.
So abusing people is OK if:
1. children are involved
2. someone did something that they should have known was wrong (the mob decides this)
3. people are outraged that something happened to a child (no matter how irrational the outrage)
4. Conviction will bring good publicity to DA, and make some feel good.
5. Outraged mob, clueless about the law or the difference between “illegal” and “wrong”
6. Plea bargain “negotiated” (read: shoved down their throats. who cares if it’s justified, we must feel good, now!)
Things not needed:
1. bail (constitution, schmonstitution. it’s about the kids!)
2. DA obeying the law
3. fair treatment (they were arrested, they must be guilty)
4. common sense.
5. fair trial
Yea, when it’s about the kids; the law does not matter. We must have retribution right damn now. Fuck the law, it’s not important when people are outraged. Mob justice, right now. Yep, that’s a civilized society.
Oh it’s not about the kids. IT’S ABOUT THE LAW.
There was time in this country when you had to have “criminal intent” in order to be convicted. Now all you need to do is harm a kid and the mob will come running on cue to demand some good ol’ vigilante justice!
How sad so many of you grew up here, and are totally clueless about what our country was really about. There was a time when the Sheriff, King/Queen, Constabulary could arrest you, hold you indefinitely, force you to sign a confession, and then punish however they pleased. Seems that time has returned. Only now the public sides with the Crown.
As for the drug issue, they make these things called “pill splitters” very common, I might add. They are meant to size down dosage. Just FYI. As for coatings, they are generally only for slow release.
Why do you assume they “crushed up some pills” — which is an acceptable way to do it for most pills — ; is it because it makes your point stronger in your eyes? It doesn’t. Like I said previously, truly dangerous drugs that require precise sizing and usage ARE NOT AVAILABLE OTC.
Not sure what pills you take, but even pills with filler are created based upon equilibrium of contents. If what you say is true, then it’s possible to take a pill with all filler or all active ingredients. I find that ‘hard to swallow’.
Let’s face it some only want to “feel good”; they don’t care if Justice prevailed, the only thing that they care about is feeling good. That my friends is the problem with our country. Too many people worried about feelings, instead of what is important.
Read the autopsy report…………..it’s public record!
TRACE amounts found in baby’s system.
TRACE! Not “crushed up adult pills”. (In the records)
“Theraputic” levels that could NOT have caused ANY harm to this child. NO “cocktails”. Sorry Matt, no matter HOW many times you say it, it’s STILL not true! You’re not in “OZ” anymore.
Medication WAS given ON ADVISE OF A ER DOCTOR! (In the records)
Medication (not “S”) was pulled from all shelves in America when it was found to “cause sudden and unexplained death of infants”.
FYI….the medication manufacturer had know for 7 YEARS of this “side affect” and did NOTHING to stop it’s distributuion!
There are now several class action lawsuits against the manufacturer for at least 16 baby’s dying after taking this medication! SIXTEEN!
Matt Greco is a liar. PERIOD!
BTW….he’s NOT “under oath” with ANY of his statements in court or to the press! We NEED to get rid of these people!
The pending lawsuits for their incompetence will bankrupt this city!
WHY the plea deal offered? Read todays paper.
That is just the tip of the iceburg!
Hang on……..it’s going to get bumpy!
According to the document, the father told a medical investigator that his son woke up about 5 a.m. last Oct. 25, crying heavily, and he gave the baby a dose of Zantac and a half-tablet of Sominex.He later gave another account, in which he said he gave his son crushed half-pills of Unisom, Zantac and Benadryl via syringes and bottles, said Medical Investigator James Ramirez.
Knowing the middle child well, I’m really concerned that several posters have mentioned her name. PLEASE STOP. It’s way to easy to track her down for the freaks on the internet who may want to. She’s doing so well right now, I would hate for some “tell the kid the truth no matter what” sicko to find her and lay waste to all the healing she has done this year. Leave the kids and their names espeically out of this debate. Mike-can you pull the posts with her name out of concern for her privacy? Please?
So sorry, I meant Mark, not Mike. Seriously though, would you consider it to protect her?
I don’t believe I have seen her name on here. Even if I did, I sure would NOT post it here! I truly hope she is doing well. I hope they BOTH are. There is NO reason their names should even enter into this discussion.
Oh dear.. So Mark,
This whole case should just be thrown out, and everyone on this case is corrupt and should lose their job? And what about these people in jail? They should get off with nothing, and not take any responsibility for what they did, and all the blame should go on the DA’s office, and all their staff?? That just doesn’t make any sense.. are you serious?? SO with everything that you have said about the DA’s people who are working the case are all so wrong, so are you really trying to say that these two people did NOTHING wrong, and the baby died on “accident” and since it was an “accident” they should get off with nothing? SO if I was to have a couple drinks, and thought I was fine to drive because I “think” I know how much alchahol my body can handle, and say I decide to give my friend a ride home, and then on the way turns out I’m more intoxicated then I had originally thought. Then say I smash my car into a pole and my friend dies, should I get away with nothing because it was an accident, and I thought I knew what my body could handle?
Same thing, different circumstance. Would you blame the DA’s office for arresting me? So then while they are looking over my case and I was in jail would I wrongly be inprisioned? If my lawyer was taking his/her sweet time in trying to work my case over so that I could win, and then he came to me and said I will let you out but you have to say that you purposley killed your friend.. WHAT?! Of course I would say no I didn’t intentionally kill my friend. I did a stupid thing by deciding to drink and drive and I should take responsibility for w